MuggleNet's "New Clues" Theory Board

Lillian D. · Sleuth Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 23

Don't you think that's just a little farfetched to be considered rule #3? I mean, we actually got to see what Snape's parents were like in one of Snape's memories. Are you suggesting that one of these people married one of James' parents? And a comment like, "It's more the fact that he exists" is not really limited to sibling rivalry. For example, if I ever met Malfoy, I wouldn't mind giving him a good punch even though he's not my stepbrother. It's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean...

I really have to wonder about Snape putting this particular memory in the Pensieve. Wouldn't he have worse ones concerning his experiences as a deatheater that he wouldn't want Harry to see? (Harry does, after all, hint to Snape that he doesn't trust him and suspects he might still be a DE. The imposter Moody also told Snape that he didn't trust him straight out so Snape knows that people are suspicious of his DE past.)
Is it possible that Snape did take out other memories in a different Pensieve or was there only one?

why · Sleuth Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 10

I have a few other thoughts about why Snape put THOSE memories in the pensieve, and not others along with some possible explanations.

Snape hates Harry because he associates him with his father (comparisons in behavior, Dumbledore says that its Snapes past that prevented him from teaching Harry Occl.

There are two possibilities as to why he put the memories in the pensieve
1. He wanted to
2. Somebody else wanted him to

Breaking each of these down even further I realized a lot of information already discussed

1. He wanted to
a. He didn't want Harry to see them (and realized that Occl. Legil made him more venerable to let his memories be witnessed)
i. show a weakness Harry could use against him
ii. just embarrassing
b. He wanted Harry to see them
i. wanted to deflate Harry to see how arrogant his father could be
ii. wanted to show a key to the past.

1.b.ii. is one of the ideas that hasn't been discussed much. Yes, people mentioned that the memory (whether complete or incomplete) is a key to a past event (info on Snape, Marauders, Lily). If Snape realizes this event is crucial could he perhaps want Harry to see it because it will help Harry understand Snape, understand something about his parent's past, understand something that might be a further secret with VM. I know I haven't found any canon to back up that Snape might want Harry to see the memory not just to embarrass him, but also to help him, but nonetheless I see that it could be a possibility (albeit farfetched).

Now part 2.

2. Somebody else wanted him to (the only person I could see this being would be DD because he asked Snape to give Harry Occl. lessons.)
a. DD didn't want Harry to see certain information
i. DD, by this point, had not opened up to Harry and perhaps wanted to make sure nobody else let Harry see any important information about the Order, his father, because by this point DD still thought Harry wasn't old enough to get the whole story.
ii. DD wanted to help Snape (I'll explain this later)
b. DD wanted Harry to see certain information
i. DD knows from the experience in his office that Harry knows what a pensieve does so if he can get Harry to find out information this way it would not require DD from explaining things to him (something that he dreads)
A. DD wants Harry to see what his father was like
B. DD wants Harry to see why Snape is the way he is
C. DD wants Harry to see something else (again no canon)

Maybe Snape didn't realize, like DD, that Harry would look into the penseive, thereby he could convince Snape to do it, or maybe they both agreed that Harry would look into it and agreed it might be beneficial... again just throwing out possibilities.

Now I want to give one idea that I don't know if it is possible but I think, if it were, could be probably and that is 2.a.ii DD wants to help Snape.

DD knows the issues from Snapes past, so he realizes that might be a problem. DD uses the penseive to clear his mind when he has too many thoughts in it. So, perhaps if Snape takes all the memories he has of why he hates James (that would be floating in his mind when he is around Harry) out of his mind Snape would be able to think clearer. Without being cluttered by hatred, Snape could see more clearly why he needed to help Harry. If you take a memory and put it in the penseive... can you still remember that you had that memory without looking into the penseive?

ALSO, maybe this explains why Snape peered into the pensieve in the middle of the lesson. Harry had just made progress (being able to deflect the spell) without Snape telling him how to do it. Snape would obviously be taken back and perhaps proud of his teaching. So, for a moment he puts the hatred of Harry behind him, but instantly he realizes that he doesn't like Harry and knows he needs justification. So he returns to the pensieve where he sees these awful thoughts and memories that he had before, and now he can go back to hating Harry.

Sorry that was a bit long

suleman · New Member Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 6

snape hid his memories from Harry so that if harry entered his mind he would not see his worst moments Laughing

Ollivanders · Moderator Joined: 25 Mar 2004 Posts: 712

Sleuths read the whole thread before you post anything. Chances are that your thoughts have already been posted.

Thanks
Ollivanders, Moderator

Strider · Sleuth Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 31

I think that while he largely put that memory in the pensive to stop to stop Harry seeing, a small part of him probably wanted Harry to finally see what his father was like. If the memories in the pensive work the way I think they do- that is like someone with a camera video taped the event and then replayed it- then the memory itself is not biased and it is therefore the first trully accurate representation of his father that Harry has ever seen. Cool

Winkys Conscience · Super Sleuth Joined: 18 Nov 2003 Posts: 69

tzenpruamen · Super Sleuth Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 6

I tend towards the "Snape set Harry up" camp. Cool

After all He is always accusing Harry of being nosey and following his own rules.

Plus who is to say that what is in the Penseive is a true representation of what happened and not a biased representation of how Snape remembers it?
after all if the Penseive recalls everything perfectly what is to stop Voldemort from collecting the memories from each of his available Death Eaters who were in the Minestry of Magic and then strolling up to the broken prophesy and hearing it "first hand"? if that were the case Im sure Voldemort could have arranged for one of his Death Eaters, Malfoy for example, to show up under an Invisibility cloak, knock down a couple of propheseys and review the memories later! Confused

ArtemisMoonbow · Moderator Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 1485

If it were so simple as that -- sneaking in under and invisibility cloak and knocking down prophesies -- why didn't Voldemort do that in the first place instead of using Podmore and Bode to try to get to it?

Do we have any canon evidence that Voldemort has a pensieve? Or that Malfoy has an invisibility cloak?

tzenpruamen · Super Sleuth Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 6

we do have some cannon- Tom Riddles Diary.
Even whilst at Hogwarts Tom wasd able to enchant the Muggle Artifact to operate in a very similar method to the penseive. We also have Harry's comment comparing being inside both objects Feeling/coming across in a very similar way.

As to Malfoy owning an invisibility Cloak, Moody has two and he is an "ex-Auror" (read government worker) with the Malfoy Fortune and long lineage (Harry's was inherited) there is strong reason to beleive that Malfoy may be able to get his hands on one. Anyway Malfoy's involvement is only One possible catspaw, any of the Death Eaters may be assigned the mission. After all he could just as easily send in Wormtail to do the damage.

But when it comes to it the point I was trying to make anyhow is that the Penseive may not be an ideal method of information retreival, just a form of "post it note" which wizards use to remind themselves of important things but they only contain what they put into it

madeyemuggle · Moderator Joined: 02 Mar 2004 Posts: 1514

Riddles diary was destoryed by Harry in the chamber. If that Diary was over 50 years old and created for the soul purpose to have someone help open the chamber,I doubt that counts as a true pensive.
I don't think that there is enough canon to support that Malfoy does have a cloak either.
There seems to be some really great ideas sprouting in this thread. I suggest to anyone who has not read the whole thread to please do so before posting.

Thanks.
madeyemuggle, Moderator

angel · Super Sleuth Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 926

Well, we know that Sirius and James were a pair of trouble makers, and James "hexing people" just for fun. Also that he and Snape loathed each other since they met the first time.
"once james had deflated his head a bit and stopped hexing people just for the fun of it." "even Snape?" "well, he was a special case. Snape never missed an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't have expect him to take that lying down" (from my memory)

We know for a fact that THIS memory wasn't the only time James and Sirius tried to hex each other.
So why this memory?

I have to agree that the important part lies not with James hexing Snape and embarassing him (since there were probably other times), but with Lily.

So either the "worst" part was being hexed in front of her,
her standing up for snape to James (not even lupin had the "guts" to tell him off)
or Snape insulting her for no good reason.

maybe if he hadn't called her "mudblood" things would have happened differently?
maybe Lily did go out with james and not with severus because he had insulted her.
something like "I am not going out with you, you called me a mudblood".

So if he hadn't insulted her, things would have been different?

Just a thought.

charles.renner · New Member Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Posts: 4

it makes sence for snape to use the pensive to hide thoughts from harry. if snape didnt hide his thought, voldy - through harry might have seen that snape is on 'our' side, also he wouldnt have wanted harry to see snapes memory of being humiliated by james and sirius - which he did see in the pensive. and accouding to jk rowling harry and voldy have a 'link', so if harry continues occlumency lessons (this time with dumbledore) he might have to use the pensive to hide his memory about seeing the prophecy.

snape62442 · New Member Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 1

the whole idea of a lilly/snape affair and/or love triangle when they were in hogwarts seems completely possible after having read on mugglenet.com what they know for sure will happen in books 6/7 through JKRs website and interviews.....in HBP "Something HUGE will be revealed about Lily Potter."...which only makes you wonder IS it the love triangle?? or is it a love interest with snape??....also, "It's very important in the plot that Harry has his mother's eyes"...someone earlier in the thread mentioned that when Snape looks at harry he sees lilys eyes and is reminded of his dreadful past all over again...they kind of make you wonder what JKR means when she says these things!!! Wink

prophet09 · Sleuth Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 40

if this is true(the lilly/snape affair)...one of two things will happen. harry will either hate snape even more, or harry will see things differently about him. in book five harry quickly changes his mind about his dad(not dramatically but nevertheless his mind does change) so maybe he'll think that if his mom saw something in snape harry might reconsider him...i hope not though Sad

siriusaddict · Moderator Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 510

Welcome new HP Sleuth.
As explained in the email you received when you joined this forum and as explained at the URL sites listed below, canon is citeable evidence found in the five (soon to be six Yeah!!!) HP books and information that JKR herself provides in interviews and on her site.

http://newclues.mugglenet.com/viewtopic.php?t=989

http://newclues.mugglenet.com/viewtopic.php?t=611